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Dáil Éireann - Volume 443 - 25 May, 1994 Order of Business. The Taoiseach Albert Reynolds The Taoiseach: It is proposed to take No. 4, Statements on Local Government Planning Regulations, and Nos. 7 and 2. It is also proposed, notwithstanding anything in Standing Orders that: (1) No. 4 shall be decided without debate and any division demanded thereon shall be taken forthwith; (2) The Statements on Local Government Planning Regulations, if not previously concluded, shall be brought to a conclusion at 7.00 p.m. and the following arrangements shall apply: (i) the opening statement of a main spokesperson for the Government, the Fine Gael Party, the Progressive Democrats Party and the Technical Group shall not exceed 30 minutes in each case; (ii) the statement of each other Member called on shall not exceed 20 minutes in each case; and (iii) a Minister or Minister of State shall be called on not later than 6.50 p.m. to make a concluding statement; and (3) Private Members' Business shall be No. 11 and the proceedings thereon shall be brought to a conclusion at 8.30 p.m. An Ceann Comhairle Seán Treacy An Ceann Comhairle: Are the proposals for dealing with item No. 4 satisfactory and agreed? Agreed. Are the proposals for dealing with statements satisfactory and agreed? Agreed. Is it agreed that Private Members' Business shall terminate at 8.30 p.m. this evening? Agreed. Mr. J. Bruton Mr. J. Bruton 253 Mr. J. Bruton: Sir, I wish to raise a question in regard to item No. 5 on today's Order Paper — Vote 20 — Garda Síochána (Revised Estimate) and to ask when it will be taken. Is the Government willing to enforce the law? Is it not the case that paramilitary displays of the [253] kind depicted in today's edition of The Irish Times are clearly against the law? An Ceann Comhairle Seán Treacy An Ceann Comhairle: Deputy Bruton, please, it is not appropriate to display items in the House. Mr. J. Bruton Mr. J. Bruton Mr. J. Bruton: This display by the Provisional IRA—— Mr. G. Mitchell Mr. G. Mitchell Mr. G. Mitchell: Sir, do you want to wait until they march up to Leinster House? An Ceann Comhairle Seán Treacy An Ceann Comhairle: This is the Order of Business. It is a long standing convention of this House that displays of this kind should not take place. Mr. J. Bruton Mr. J. Bruton Mr. J. Bruton: Sir, I will lay down my copy of The Irish Times for anyone who wishes to read it. What action will the Garda take to enforce the law in regard to paramilitary displays of the kind that occurred in Finglas? An Ceann Comhairle Seán Treacy An Ceann Comhairle: The Deputy should raise that matter in the ordinary way. It is not appropriate to the Order of Business. Mr. J. Bruton Mr. J. Bruton Mr. J. Bruton: It is appalling, provocative and dangerous for everybody living in this city. An Ceann Comhairle Seán Treacy An Ceann Comhairle: Deputy Bruton must desist forthwith. Mr. J. Bruton Mr. J. Bruton Mr. J. Bruton: No, Sir, I will not desist until I get an assurance that this Government will take the requisite action. This would not happen anywhere else and did not happen under previous Governments. I want to know what the Government will do about this. An Ceann Comhairle Seán Treacy An Ceann Comhairle: Deputy Bruton is showing defiance of the Chair. Mr. J. Bruton Mr. J. Bruton Mr. J. Bruton: I want to know what the Government will do about this. An Ceann Comhairle Seán Treacy 254 An Ceann Comhairle: I rather expected the Leader of the main Opposition [254] party to give the lead in respect of responsibilities. The Taoiseach Albert Reynolds The Taoiseach: Have respect for the Chair. Mr. J. Bruton Mr. J. Bruton Mr. J. Bruton: Sir, you have been punctilious in the extreme. An Ceann Comhairle Seán Treacy An Ceann Comhairle: Deputy Bruton, I will not be abused by you or any Member of this House. Mr. J. Bruton Mr. J. Bruton Mr. J. Bruton: I have not abused you, Sir. An Ceann Comhairle Seán Treacy An Ceann Comhairle: You will resume your seat forthwith, Deputy. (Interruptions.) Mr. J. Bruton Mr. J. Bruton Mr. J. Bruton: Never in my 25 years in this House have I been thrown out of the House but I am willing to allow that to happen if you will not permit me to answer. Mr. G. Mitchell Mr. G. Mitchell Mr. G. Mitchell: You can throw everybody else out one by one; we will not stand for it. Mr. Barrett Mr. Barrett Mr. Barrett: You can throw us all out. Mr. J. Bruton Mr. J. Bruton Mr. J. Bruton: Sir, I have raised this matter in order—— An Ceann Comhairle Seán Treacy An Ceann Comhairle: Deputy Bruton, this is not Quesiton Time. We are on the Order of Business. Mr. J. Bruton Mr. J. Bruton Mr. J. Bruton: Sir, what will the Government do about this? I have no quarrel with you, Sir. An Ceann Comhairle Seán Treacy An Ceann Comhairle: There are many ways open to the Deputy. Mr. J. Bruton Mr. J. Bruton Mr. J. Bruton: We got answers yesterday from the Minister for Justice. An Ceann Comhairle Seán Treacy 255 An Ceann Comhairle: Since we have had scenes of great disorder in the House and the Leader of the main Opposition party has shown disdain and disregard [255] for the authority of the Chair I propose to suspend proceedings for half an hour. Mr. J. Bruton Mr. J. Bruton Mr. J. Bruton: Sir, you will have great disorder unless we get clear answers to this question. (Inerruptions.) The Taoiseach Albert Reynolds The Taoiseach: I hope they are happy now, this is disgraceful. Mr. J. Bruton Mr. J. Bruton Mr. J. Bruton: With all the Taoiseach's sympathetic words for these people—— Mrs. Owen Mrs. Owen Mrs. Owen: The Taoiseach is conferring respectability on them. The Taoiseach Albert Reynolds The Taoiseach: There is no respect for the Chair. Sitting suspended at 11 a.m. and resumed at 11.30 a.m. An Ceann Comhairle Seán Treacy An Ceann Comhairle: Let us now proceed to deal with the Order of Business proper. Mr. J. Bruton Mr. J. Bruton Mr. J. Bruton: The paramilitary display in Finglas yesterday is a symbol of breakdown of law and order. What I was seeking, which is perfectly in order, was a commitment from the Government to take the Garda Estimate this week so that the Minister for Justice can explain what she intends to do to enforce the law. An Ceann Comhairle Seán Treacy An Ceann Comhairle: The Deputy should not make a speech. The Taoiseach Albert Reynolds The Taoiseach: The matter raised by Deputy Bruton is, as he knows only too well, an operational matter for the Garda Síochána under the direction of the Garda Commissioner and we will leave it there. There was an extensive opportunity in the House yesterday for 45 minutes to question the Minister for Justice in relation to the present situation and the same opportunity can be taken again if the Deputy so wishes. Mr. J. Bruton Mr. J. Bruton 256 Mr. J. Bruton: That is a completely [256] inadequate response to an appalling display—— An Ceann Comhairle Seán Treacy An Ceann Comhairle: It should not and cannot give rise to debate now. Mr. J. Bruton Mr. J. Bruton Mr. J. Bruton: ——of paramilitary might on the streets of this city which endangers everybody living in Dublin. When will we have the debate on the Garda Estimate? The Taoiseach Albert Reynolds The Taoiseach: I would point out that Private Members' Business is a motion on crime and there will be an opportunity to contribute this evening. I appeal to Deputy Bruton not to continue his disgraceful display of disrespect for the Chair and disregard for the rules of this House. An Ceann Comhairle Seán Treacy An Ceann Comhairle: Can we proceed—— Mr. J. Bruton Mr. J. Bruton Mr. J. Bruton: This display is disrespect for this State, which institution it is the Taoiseach's charge to protect. An Ceann Comhairle Seán Treacy An Ceann Comhairle: I am very concerned—— The Taoiseach Albert Reynolds The Taoiseach: I have always protected it and will continue to do so. The Deputy should not attempt to undermine the efficiency of the Garda Síochána. It is disgraceful on the part of a responsible politician. Show more respect for the House and law and order like a responsible politician. Mr. J. Bruton Mr. J. Bruton Mr. J. Bruton: I and my party are here to ensure that the law is enforced. An Ceann Comhairle Seán Treacy An Ceann Comhairle: Please, Deputy Bruton. Mr. J. Bruton Mr. J. Bruton Mr. J. Bruton: I am very concerned. An Ceann Comhairle Seán Treacy An Ceann Comhairle: I have been very concerned about the lowering of standards in this democratic assembly this morning. Mr. G. Mitchell Mr. G. Mitchell 257 [257] Mr. G. Mitchell: There is more respect for Sinn Fein than for law and order. An Ceann Comhairle Seán Treacy An Ceann Comhairle: I have always striven to uphold the dignity and decorum of this House and I do not know how a democratic assembly can proceed except by obedience to the Chair and the Standing Orders and precedents of the House. I am not prepared to preside over a rowdy House. If this disorder continues you leave me no option but to suspend proceedings for a much longer period until common sense and dignity is restored to this Chamber. Mr. J. Bruton Mr. J. Bruton Mr. J. Bruton: On a point of order—— An Ceann Comhairle Seán Treacy An Ceann Comhairle: Where is the point of order? Mr. J. Bruton Mr. J. Bruton Mr. J. Bruton: I wish to seek your advice. What is the value of passing legislation unless we are assured it will be enforced? It is plain that what occurred in Finglas was illegal. An Ceann Comhairle Seán Treacy An Ceann Comhairle: We are reverting to the same matter. I call Deputy Rabbitte and I trust he will help me to restore the dignity of the House by adherence to the business proper on the Order of Business. Mr. J. Bruton Mr. J. Bruton Mr. J. Bruton: If Members think this is a laughing matter it only shows the state of disorder in this State. Mr. Rabbitte Mr. Rabbitte Mr. Rabbitte: I do not think it is possible to exaggerate the gravity of the matter Deputy Bruton has raised. This House ought to be enabled to secure a reply from the Taoiseach on the important matter he raised. An Ceann Comhairle Seán Treacy An Ceann Comhairle: We cannot debate the matter now, Deputy. There are many ways and means open to Deputies to raise the matter. This matter has been the subject of debate in this House in recent days. It can be raised further in accordance with the procedures of the House. Mr. J. Bruton Mr. J. Bruton 258 [258] Mr. J. Bruton: It has not been debated here at all. An Ceann Comhairle Seán Treacy An Ceann Comhairle: It is not in order now. Mr. Rabbitte Mr. Rabbitte Mr. Rabbitte: I refer you, a Cheann Comhairle, to item No. 18, sub item 15, on today's Order Paper. You will recall that yesterday you invited me to put down a motion concerning the Minister for Social Welfare misleading the House. I have done that and I ask the Taoiseach whether he will allow Government time to debate this motion, which is within the rules as required by the Chair, or whether the Minister for Social Welfare intends — as I understand unofficially he does — to come before this House and make an apology for misleading the House—— An Ceann Comhairle Seán Treacy An Ceann Comhairle: Deputy Rabbitte has made a request in respect of a certain matter on the Order Paper which is quite in order. The Taoiseach Albert Reynolds The Taoiseach: It is open to the Deputy and his party to move the motion in Private Members' time. Mr. Rabbitte Mr. Rabbitte Mr. Rabbitte: That makes a farce of your request to me yesterday. The Minister has cheated up to 70,000 women—— An Ceann Comhairle Seán Treacy An Ceann Comhairle: Please, Deputy Rabbitte—— Mr. Rabbitte Mr. Rabbitte Mr. Rabbitte: ——and he misled the House. You are talking about order. Are you going to permit a situation where you preside over a House where the Minister comes in—— An Ceann Comhairle Seán Treacy An Ceann Comhairle: Please do not make allegations of a serious kind. There are procedures in relation to such matters. Mr. Rabbitte Mr. Rabbitte Mr. Rabbitte: It is serious. Mr. M. McDowell Mr. M. McDowell Mr. M. McDowell: If he wants to make a personal statement later—— Mr. Rabbitte Mr. Rabbitte 259 Mr. Rabbitte: I have put down a [259] motion. What else can I do? He is trying to come in at a time when nobody will be aware and make an apology to the House. An Ceann Comhairle Seán Treacy An Ceann Comhairle: Deputy Rabbitte may not anticipate his Private Members' motion now. It will come before us in due course. Mr. Rabbitte Mr. Rabbitte Mr. Rabbitte: It will take six weeks to reach the motion in Private Members' time. An Ceann Comhairle Seán Treacy An Ceann Comhairle: That is not the fault of the Chair. Mr. Rabbitte Mr. Rabbitte Mr. Rabbitte: The Minister cheated up to 70,000 women and gave false information to the House and still sits tight. An Ceann Comhairle Seán Treacy An Ceann Comhairle: I ask the Deputy to resume his seat. Mr. Rabbitte Mr. Rabbitte Mr. Rabbitte: I am stating that the Minister misled the House. Nobody challenges that and you will not permit or require him to make a statement to the House in accordance with normal procedure. An Ceann Comhairle Seán Treacy An Ceann Comhairle: The Deputy should not reflect upon the Chair; the facilities of the House are available to him. The motion he put down can be dealt with in Private Members' Business at the appropriate time. I can do no more in the matter. Mr. Rabbitte Mr. Rabbitte Mr. Rabbitte: I accept that but I advise you that a court case on 21 June can determine this matter. This motion will not be debated until after that. Dr. Woods Dr. Woods Dr. Woods: The Deputy is undermining the position of the State. That is nothing new. Proinsias De Rossa Proinsias De Rossa Proinsias De Rossa: The Minister is undermining the rights of more than 70,000 women. Mr. G. Mitchell Mr. G. Mitchell 260 Mr. G. Mitchell: Will the Taoiseach [260] reply to the question put to him as to when the Vote for the Garda Síochána will be taken on the floor of the House given it will not be adequate to deal with it at a committee? The House needs to know if gardaí were present at this display yesterday and what action was taken. An Ceann Comhairle Seán Treacy An Ceann Comhairle: We are having repetition; this is not Question Time. Mr. G. Mitchell Mr. G. Mitchell Mr. G. Mitchell: This is a serious matter. Will the Taoiseach bring the Estimate for the Garda Síochána forward and deal with it on the floor of the House? An Ceann Comhairle Seán Treacy An Ceann Comhairle: I call Deputy De Rossa. Proinsias De Rossa Proinsias De Rossa Proinsias De Rossa: On a point of order, is it in order—— Mr. G. Mitchell Mr. G. Mitchell Mr. G. Mitchell: Will that Estimate be dealt with in the House? An Ceann Comhairle Seán Treacy An Ceann Comhairle: That question was asked earlier. Mr. G. Mitchell Mr. G. Mitchell Mr. G. Mitchell: It has not been answered. I am asking that it be dealt with in the House to give us an opportunity to discuss the matter. Do we have to wait until these people are on the steps of Leinster House before the Taoiseach acts? The Taoiseach Albert Reynolds The Taoiseach: Will the Deputy listen? The issue of crime and law and order will be dealt with during Private Members' Business tonight—— Mr. G. Mitchell Mr. G. Mitchell Mr. G. Mitchell: We want the Estimate for the Garda Síochána. Mr. Barrett Mr. Barrett Mr. Barrett: This is not private business. The Taoiseach Albert Reynolds The Taoiseach: If the House wants a debate, I am pointing out all the opportunities available. Mr. J. Bruton Mr. J. Bruton Mr. J. Bruton: We want to know what the Taoiseach will do about it. Mr. G. Mitchell Mr. G. Mitchell 261 [261] Mr. G. Mitchell: We want to debate the action the Taoiseach will take. The Taoiseach Albert Reynolds The Taoiseach: The Deputies opposite do not want to listen; they are only interested in 9 June, playing politics and in trying to undermine—— (Interruptions.) Mr. J. Bruton Mr. J. Bruton Mr. J. Bruton: That is a disgraceful statement. Members of my party gave their lives to protect this State. That is an outrageous statement and I will not accept it from the Taoiseach. I demand that it be withdrawn. I request the Taoiseach to withdraw that appalling slur. The Taoiseach Albert Reynolds The Taoiseach: The Taoiseach will not withdraw it because there are ample opportunties to discuss legislation in this House. Mr. J. Bruton Mr. J. Bruton Mr. J. Bruton: It has nothing to do with legislation; the Taoiseach should withdraw the statement. The Taoiseach Albert Reynolds The Taoiseach: I will not; the Deputy is playing politics. Mr. J. Bruton Mr. J. Bruton Mr. J. Bruton: We are not; the Taoiseach is charged with the responsibility of enforcing the law and he is not able do it. The Taoiseach Albert Reynolds The Taoiseach: I take that responsibility every day and I will not allow the Garda Síochána to be undermined by anybody on the opposite side of the House. Mr. G. Mitchell Mr. G. Mitchell Mr. G. Mitchell: What action has the Taoiseach taken against these people? None. The Taoiseach Albert Reynolds The Taoiseach: The Deputy should behave himself. An Ceann Comhairle Seán Treacy An Ceann Comhairle: Order, please; if order is not restored immediately and unless we proceed in a dignified manner I propose to suspend the sitting—— Mr. J. Bruton Mr. J. Bruton 262 [262] Mr. J. Bruton: I ask the Taoiseach to withdraw the statement. An Ceann Comhairle Seán Treacy An Ceann Comhairle: How dare the Deputy interrupt me when I am making a statement to the House? The Taoiseach Albert Reynolds The Taoiseach: He should obey the Chair and not show disrespect. Mr. J. Bruton Mr. J. Bruton Mr. J. Bruton: I want the statement withdrawn. An Ceann Comhairle Seán Treacy An Ceann Comhairle: The Deputy should not show such disdain; I will not tolerate it. Mr. J. Bruton Mr. J. Bruton Mr. J. Bruton: I want the statement withdrawn. An Ceann Comhairle Seán Treacy An Ceann Comhairle: I am telling the House—— Mr. J. Bruton Mr. J. Bruton Mr. J. Bruton: The Taoiseach should withdraw the statement. The Taoiseach Albert Reynolds The Taoiseach: No. An Ceann Comhairle Seán Treacy An Ceann Comhairle: ——that I will suspend the sitting for a much longer period. Mr. Barrett Mr. Barrett Mr. Barrett: Your might as well suspend it for all time. An Ceann Comhairle Seán Treacy An Ceann Comhairle: I call Deputy De Rossa. Mr. G. Mitchell Mr. G. Mitchell Mr. G. Mitchell: The allegation made in the House should be withdrawn. An Ceann Comhairle Seán Treacy An Ceann Comhairle: I called Deputy De Rossa. Proinsias De Rossa Proinsias De Rossa Proinsias De Rossa: I seek your advice. A statement was made by the Minister for Social Welfare, Deputy Woods, less than five minutes ago. He shouted across the House that I was attempting to undermine the institutions of this State. Dr. Woods Dr. Woods Dr. Woods: The position of the State in the legal case. Proinsias De Rossa Proinsias De Rossa 263 [263] Proinsias De Rossa: Is it in order for any Member of this House, particularly a Minister who has deliberately misled this House, to make that kind of accusation? An Ceann Comhairle Seán Treacy An Ceann Comhairle: There was pandemonium for some time this morning—— Mr. Barrett Mr. Barrett Mr. Barrett: Why do you keep trying to protect them? An Ceann Comhairle Seán Treacy An Ceann Comhairle: ——and the Chair did not hear such a remark. Mr. Barrett Mr. Barrett Mr. Barrett: You hear them from this side. An Ceann Comhairle Seán Treacy An Ceann Comhairle: I am not the kind of chairman that hides behind this situation; I do my job openly, independent of any side of this House. Unless we get down to the business of the House I will suspend the proceedings. Mr. G. Mitchell Mr. G. Mitchell Mr. G. Mitchell: We have no—— An Ceann Comhairle Seán Treacy An Ceann Comhairle: Will the Deputy help me? Mr. G. Mitchell Mr. G. Mitchell Mr. G. Mitchell: I will. We do not want you to adjourn the House but we wish to hear from the Taoiseach what action he is taking against subversives—— An Ceann Comhairle Seán Treacy An Ceann Comhairle: There are ways and means of dealing with that matter. Item No. 4. Mr. G. Mitchell Mr. G. Mitchell Mr. G. Mitchell: We want to know what action he is taking against subversives. Mr. J. Bruton Mr. J. Bruton Mr. J. Bruton: I ask the Taoiseach to withdraw the statement he made in the House against me and members of the Fine Gael Party. An Ceann Comhairle Seán Treacy An Ceann Comhairle: I am proceeding to the business of the House. Mr. J. Bruton Mr. J. Bruton 264 Mr. J. Bruton: I ask the Taoiseach to withdraw the unworthy remark he made [264] about me and the members of the Fine Gael Party. An Ceann Comhairle Seán Treacy An Ceann Comhairle: The Deputy should please assist me to restore order at this time. Mr. J. Bruton Mr. J. Bruton Mr. J. Bruton: I ask the Taoiseach to withdraw that statement, please. The Taoiseach Albert Reynolds The Taoiseach: The Deputy knows that is not in order to display the front page of a newpaper in this House. He also knows that he is out of order on the Order of Business and that he will have an opportunity this evening and next week. What other opportunities does he want? Mr. J. Bruton Mr. J. Bruton Mr. J. Bruton: The Taoiseach cast a slur on other Members of this House when he is not prepared to enforce the law against subversives. An Ceann Comhairle Seán Treacy An Ceann Comhairle: I call on the Minister for Finance to move item No. 4. Mr. J. Bruton Mr. J. Bruton Mr. J. Bruton: Is the Taoiseach prepared to withdraw the statement? Mr. G. Mitchell Mr. G. Mitchell Mr. G. Mitchell: He should withdraw the remark and take action against subversives. Mr. J. Bruton Mr. J. Bruton Mr. J. Bruton: I want the Taoiseach to withdraw the remark he made about the Fine Gael Party. It was unworthy in view of our record in protecting the institutions of this State and in enforcing the law at personal costs to ourselves when in Government and supporting Fianna Fáil in doing so when it was in Government. We supported the Taoiseach's party in Government when it had to enforce the law. We are asking him to do the same now. The Taoiseach Albert Reynolds The Taoiseach: We support the law as much as anybody else; we are defending the Garda. Mr. J. Bruton Mr. J. Bruton 265 Mr. J. Bruton: The Taoiseach should enforce the law in regard to these displays [265] which put the life of every citizen of this State at risk. The Taoiseach Albert Reynolds The Taoiseach: The Garda will enforce the law; that is a serious charge. (Interruptions.) The Taoiseach Albert Reynolds The Taoiseach: The Deputy knows that the Garda is enforcing the law. Dáil Éireann 443 Order of Business. General Debate 19940525
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