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Dáil Éireann - Volume 26 - 31 October, 1928

HOUSING BILL, 1928—MONEY RESOLUTION.

The Dáil went into Committee on Finance.

The PRESIDENT: I move:—

“That it is expedient to authorise the payment out of moneys to be provided by the Oireachtas of grants made under any Act of the present Session to repeal the Housing Act, 1926, and in lieu thereof to amend the Housing Act, 1925, in respect of the aggregate amount of grants under that Act and in respect of the time limited by that Act for the erection or reconstruction of houses to which that Act applies and in other respects consequential on the repeal of the said Housing Act, 1926.”

The cost is estimated at £200,000. It is a very close estimate of the actual sum that will be involved.

Mr. DAVIN: Is the President in a position to make any announcement in regard to the question of long-term loans for local authorities, or is he in a position to state that he is prepared to fulfil the promise made in September, 1927, that such loans would be made available for local authorities in connection with housing schemes?

The PRESIDENT: That is a separate question altogether. It is a question that is involved in (1) the report of the Town Tenants Commission, and (2) possibly in any new proposals for housing which may be made in the coming year. But no provision is being made in the present Bill, which, as I said, is to complete the housing proposals of the Government in connection with the policy which has been in operation since 1922.

Mr. DAVIN: I raise the question because the President has made public pronouncements upon the matter, and we are now waiting. I think, thirteen months for the making available of the facilities promised in September, 1927. Reading through the President's [1149] pronouncements here and outside in regard to the housing question, one is inclined to think that the solving of it in the rural parts of the country must necessarily wait until there is some agreement on the question of building costs in the three or four cities. The President knows well, and if he does not know the Minister for Local Government knows, that there are numerous demands in the Local Government Department from local authorities in the rural areas for long-term loans. I fail to see, especially if the President's statement is true, that money is available, why these facilities cannot now be afforded to the local authorities who are prepared to go ahead with schemes if money is made available.

The PRESIDENT: It is not a question alone of making the money available. Making money available for long-term loans would not solve the question. The Deputy, I think, knows that the thing that will solve the question is to get value for the money that is expended. That is the problem which has really to be solved. As soon as that is solved—and a real effort ought to be made to solve it—the other question will be fairly easily dealt with by this or any other Government.

Mr. MORRISSEY: The President said that this is not a question of money but of getting value for the money expended. He made a similar statement last week. I should like if he would explain exactly what he means. Does the President mean that the Government are not prepared to go ahead with any housing scheme until such time as they will be in a position to build houses at an economic rent? If that is what he means by getting value, does he believe that he is going to reach that position in the next ten years?

The PRESIDENT: That is the situation which was discussed by the Committee on Unemployment, with the very wise recommendation that agreement should be reached on it—that the houses should be produced at a price which would be a reasonable investment, or words to that effect.

Mr. MORRISSEY: Might I ask the President if what he means by getting [1150] value for the money expended is that the Government are not prepared to proceed with any housing scheme unless houses can be built so that they can be let at what is commonly known as an economic rent?

The PRESIDENT: The Government are not prepared to put up the same amount of money as has been put up in the last two years in order to solve the question.

Mr. MORRISSEY: That is an answer to a question which I did not ask. Perhaps the President will now answer the question I asked?

Mr. GOOD: Is the President aware that the wages at present paid in Dublin to those engaged in the building trade are the highest in Europe?

Mr. CASSIDY: Is the President aware that there has been profiteering amongst the Master Builders' Association?

Mr. DAVIN: Who controls the brick-yards?

AN CEANN COMHAIRLE: We cannot discuss long-term loans and wages and the price of bricks on this motion.

Mr. FLINN: I understood the President to say that this is a resolution to “implement”—he used that very horrible word—the Bill that we were dealing with the other day, and which the President described as a vote of censure on both the operatives and the building trade; a Bill which Deputy Morrissey described as finishing up, as not containing anything which meant further work; and a Bill which I will deliberately describe as ruling off the books.

AN CEANN COMHAIRLE: Will the Deputy come to the motion for a Money Resolution?

Mr. FLINN: This money is for this purpose.

AN CEANN COMHAIRLE: No. This motion does not allow debate on the Bill; this is a Money Resolution.

[1151] Mr. FLINN: This is a Money Resolution to provide £200,000—not more than that. It is on that basis that I think we are entitled to discuss it in relation to the Bill having relation to housing.

AN CEANN COMHAIRLE: No, that is not so.

Mr. FLINN: We have to discuss the question in relation to the statement that we are providing £200,000 for a certain Bill. What I want to say in relation to that Bill is that I approve deliberately of not providing more than £200,000 until something else is done.

Mr. GOOD: “Hear, hear.”

Mr. ANTHONY: At last Deputy Flinn gets a “hear, hear” from Deputy Good.

Mr. GOOD: We are approaching sanity in this matter.

Mr. FLINN: I should like to see Deputy Good and Deputy Anthony produce before a Committee of this House, entitled to call for persons and papers, evidence of what is holding up housing in this country. I think that the sooner the two of them and those behind both of them in holding up housing——

Mr. DAVIN: And yourself.

Mr. FLINN: All right, myself also. I would have no hesitation in going before the Committee.

Mr. ANTHONY: And prove your allegation against the particular industry.

Mr. FLINN: I shall prove every statement I make.

Mr. MORRISSEY: Capital must get its price.

Mr. FLINN: And Deputy Morrissey will not lend the money he has at 2½ per cent., though he expects other people to do it. Deputy Morrissey thinks we can get a solution of this question by asking capital. as he calls it, to take less than its living wage.

AN CEANN COMHAIRLE: I suggest to the Deputy that he is taking us [1152] too far if he wants us to travel this road on this motion. I know what this debate is leading to, and I am not going to allow it.

Mr. FLINN: I want to express, through voting for this resolution, the strongest possible approval of ruling off the books, of saying that the experiment of allowing this country to be held up to ransom, by those who have held it up to ransom in the matter of this housing question, has come to an end. In this Bill we do definitely say that we are finished with the policy of being exploited, with the policy of any persons whatever holding up the housing of the people for their selfish interest and profit.

AN CEANN COMHAIRLE: That is the second time the Deputy has transgressed the ruling of the Chair.

Mr. FLINN: Then I will sit down.

Mr. LITTLE: Can we discuss alternatives to the motion?

AN CEANN COMHAIRLE: Happily the answer to that question is in the negative.

Mr. LITTLE: I am beginning to think that we can discuss nothing at all on the motion.

AN CEANN COMHAIRLE: Very little.

Mr. LITTLE: That is very little for £200,000.

Question put and agreed to.

Resolution to be reported.

The Dáil went out of Committee.

Resolution reported.

Question—“That the Dáil agree with the Committee in the said Resolution”—put and agreed to.

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