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Dáil Éireann - Volume 24 - 13 June, 1928

CONSTITUTION (AMENDMENT No. 15) BILL, 1928—FIRST STAGE.

The PRESIDENT: I move that leave be granted to introduce a Bill entitled an Act to amend the provisions of Article 52 of the Constitution requiring that the members of the Executive Council shall all be members of Dáil Eireann by providing that certain members of the Executive Council shall be members of Dáil Eireann and that the remainder shall be members of the Oircachtas and by making consequential provision in the Constitution as to the right of attendance and audience of Ministers at and in the Houses of the Oireachtas.

That is in accordance with recommendation No. 10.

Mr. FLINN: I would like if the President would give us some further information, explanation or illumination in the matter before we start.

AN LEAS-CHEANN COMHAIRLE: Will the President make any explanation?

The PRESIDENT: No, sir.

Mr. FLINN: Personally I feel a certain amount of embarrassment almost amounting to trepidation as a member of this House who is young and unlearned in its forms and ceremonies. I say that specially in so far as to me Constitutions are things large and important and not to be touched lightly by smaller men, who should not lay hands at all upon sacred instruments of that kind. I am sorry Deputy O'Hanlon is not here. One of the difficulties I have is very much the difficulty which the Independents had under the leadership of Deputy O'Hanlon, in relation to a previous one in which he found it difficult to see how one could consistently pick out of an organised structure of the national Constitution, here and there, a particular section for the [447] purpose of incontinent, unexplained and unilluminated scrapping. It is almost impossible for anyone to contemplate Constitution (Amendment 15) Bill, 1928, without feeling the very greatest trepidation when one sees that it is preceded by Constitution (Amendment) Bills 14, 13, 12, 11, 10, 9 and 8.

Mr. AIKEN: And seven and six too.

Mr. FLINN: Yes, seven and six too. Let us see what the House is faced with in this little Amendment Bill. I am going to show that it has very, very significant, internationally significant, dangerously internationally significant qualities. It is not that alone, but the whole atmosphere in relation to government which is represented by throwing at the Dáil Constitution (Amendment) Bills 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14 and 15, and God only knows how many more afterwards.

AN LEAS-CHEANN COMHAIRLE: We are only dealing with this one at present.

Mr. FLINN: What I am submitting to you, sir, is this—it was submitted with perfect order by my co-respondent, if I might so call him, Deputy O'Hanlon. You cannot take these things separately. It is a fact that must be taken into account by the Dáil, I submit with all possible respect to you. I am sorry that the President is going. I submit that we cannot consider one of these things by itself alone. I mean that it may be a question whether or not one would take one particular brick out of a house. You might consider it. But when you are asked to consider the taking of that brick out of the house, when you have already taken seven or eight other bricks out in significant and critical places, you are entitled to inquire, before you attempt to remove that brick, what is going to be the effect upon the whole structure, and what is the attitude of mind towards the whole structure and its continued existence. When people have the insolence, the impertinence, the careless disregard of constitutional law and practice and the utter contempt of democratic government which is represented by letting a wild bull loose amongst constitutional provisions, [448] to stamp where he likes, to leave the print of his feet here, there, and everywhere—you cannot consider one single amendment without——

AN LEAS-CHEANN COMHAIRLE: The Deputy has got to consider this Bill at the moment. This is a separate Bill.

Mr. FLINN: I am only adverting, adumbrating, if I may say so, the atmosphere of constitutional objection which surrounds an objection to a specific act. Is it possible for us to take out of the Constitution Article 52 and not regard the effect the taking out or leaving in or altering Article 52 can have upon other Articles? Is it possible for us to regard the suggestion of an alteration of that kind in vacuo, in utter disregard of the fact that we have actual knowledge that it is part of a system? That Amendment Bill 15 is part of a system which contains eleven, twelve and thirteen.

AN LEAS-CHEANN COMHAIRLE: The House has already passed Constitution (Amendment) Bills 11, 12, and 13 and the Deputy cannot now refer to them. He must keep to Constitution (Amendment No. 15) Bill.

Mr. FLINN: Yes. I will do so. I have five good reasons. One of the reasons why one should not attempt to enter upon the consideration of allowing to be printed or initiated, as another job to be run through, Constitution (Amendment No. 15) Bill, is because the Dáil in its wisdom has already over-loaded itself with amendments 11, 12, 13 and 14 to the Constitution. There is a perfectly sound reason in the fact that you will not have time. But you ought not to do it if you have time. I can see number 12, for instance, taking fifteen days of Parliamentary time. I can see 11——

AN LEAS-CHEANN COMHAIRLE: The Deputy cannot go back on this. He has mentioned numbers 11 and 12 for the fifth time. The Deputy must now confine himself to making his objection to number 15.

Mr. FLINN: The point I am at is this—you raised it yourself very kindly—that the Dáil having committed itself to these Bills has [449] already got such a load of constitutional change that it will not be even able to come to this Bill if we waste money on printing it. It will not be able to give it the consideration or the time which it ought to give to it. That seems to me a reason in itself good enough. This Bill is entitled “an Act to amend the provisions of Article 52 of the Constitution requiring that the members of the Executive Council shall all be members of Dáil Eireann by providing that certain members of the Executive Council shall be members of Dáil Eireann and that the remainder shall be members of the Oireachtas.” Now, the memory of the front Opposition Bench—I am anticipating—I mean the memory of the front Government Bench is very short. It is so short that they do not even remember that for party purposes they defined “Oireachtas.” What was their definition of “Oireachtas,” and try and fit it into this Bill which you are asked to waste the money of the ratepayers of this country in even printing? What are the “Oireachtas”? They consist of three parts.

Mr. GOREY: Four, I think.

AN CEANN COMHAIRLE took the Chair.

Mr. FLINN: I am the fifth—Seanad Eireann, the Dáil and Buckingham Palace, “and the remainder shall be members of the Oireachtas.” Seanad Eireann, Dáil Eireann and Buckingham Palace. I suppose somebody really did advert to the meaning of the terms which we used in drafting this Bill. We are entitled to assume that those who did advert to it adverted to it with a knowledge of the fact that the Oireachtas had been, for Governmental purposes, itself part of the scheme of which this Bill is one integral and necessary part. It defines “Oireachtas,” and if that definition of “Oireachtas” stands, then this Bill wants throwing out. I do not know who is responsible for putting that word in. If it means what they defined it to mean—the Seanad and the Dáil and the King, which King? The Seanad and the Dáil and the King— [450] that is their own definition of “Oireachtas,” and this Bill has got to stand over that, and every single provision of it has got to be consistent with that Party definition. They had an opportunity of defining “Oireachtas” in three separate ways. Two of them were given to them by my friend and colleague, Deputy Little.

AN CEANN COMHAIRLE: The Deputy appears to be wandering from the motion before us.

Mr. FLINN: I am dealing purely and simply with the word “Oireachtas.”

AN CEANN COMHAIRLE: The Deputy is not at liberty to do that.

Mr. FLINN: I am entitled, I presume, sir, to understand the motion. The President had not the consideration—perhaps he was wise; at any rate it was in his discretion—to give us an explanation of what this Bill meant. He simply threw it at us with that careless contempt——

AN CEANN COMHAIRLE: The Deputy must come to the motion and avoid the President. The Deputy must come to the question of whether leave should be given to introduce this Bill.

Mr. FLINN: Article 52 of the Constitution reads——

AN CEANN COMHAIRLE: The Deputy must not read the Constitution. He must come to the motion.

Mr. FLINN: We shall make consequential provisions in the Constitution as to the right of attendance and audience of Ministers, and Ministers shall be members of the Oireachtas and the Oireachtas shall consist of——

AN CEANN COMHAIRLE: The Deputy is discussing the Bill now. He must discuss the motion for leave to introduce the Bill. All this matter will arise if and when the Bill is introduced. The Deputy is discussing the principles contained in this particular title. He is not at liberty to discuss these principles now.

Mr. FAHY: On a point of order. I would submit that it is necessary, in this connection, to extract some meaning from the Bill before us.

[451] AN CEANN COMHAIRLE: The Bill is not before us.

Mr. FAHY: The definition is before us.

AN CEANN COMHAIRLE: A motion is before us that leave be given to introduce a Bill of which it is the title.

Mr. FAHY: I submit it is in order to say whether the Oireachtas, in that connection, includes Dáil Eireann, and, if so, what are the implications of it there? “Certain members of the Executive Council shall be members of Dáil Eireann, and the remainder shall be members of the Oireachtas.” I submit it is in order to find out what exactly “Oireachtas” means.

AN CEANN COMHAIRLE: It would be in order to discuss it if the Bill were before us.

Mr. MacENTEE: It seems to me that we have got to consider this point of view, and to revert to the attitude which was taken up in regard to the petition presented here.

AN CEANN COMHAIRLE: No. It has nothing at all to do with that. It is a different question altogether.

Mr. MacENTEE: If a motion were introduced here——

AN CEANN COMHAIRLE: The whole point is quite simple. The Deputy cannot make his speech on a motion for leave to introduce a Bill. That is what Deputy Flinn is doing.

Mr. O'HANLON: As a matter of personal explanation, I just heard that Deputy Flinn referred to me as co-respondent. I can assure Deputy Flinn that I have no desire to marry Alice.

Mr. COONEY: Are we to understand from your ruling that it is in order to introduce a motion here and have it passed through the House without letting the members know exactly what it means?

AN CEANN COMHAIRLE: Quite in order.

Mr. COONEY: We are not in order in trying to ascertain the meaning of a motion!

[452] AN CEANN COMHAIRLE: The Deputy understands the meaning of it.

Mr. FAHY: I submit that I do not honestly know what it means.

AN CEANN COMHAIRLE: The Deputy can vote in favour of the motion and have it explained later.

Mr. LEMASS: Will you rule whether or not the title of this Bill is in order and in accordance with the Constitution? The plain implication of it is that the Dáil is not portion of the Oireachtas.

AN CEANN COMHAIRLE: The title is in accordance with the text of the Bill as presented to me. At this stage leave is asked to introduce the Bill. The Deputy can make a statement that the principle is so bad that he does not want even to discuss it. If he wants to discuss it he can vote for the First Reading of the Bill. If he does not want to discuss it he can vote against it.

Mr. LEMASS: The title of the Bill is “An Act to amend Article 52 of the Constitution,” and in the title the Oireachtas is defined as excluding Dáil Eireann.

AN CEANN COMHAIRLE: That can be raised when the Bill is before us.

Mr. FLINN: There is a precedent to which I want to call your attention in relation to your ruling on this motion. A Bill was introduced in this House to abolish the Oath, and the President opposed the motion. He would not allow the Bill to be read a first time, on the ground that its principle was so bad that it ought not to be discussed.

AN CEANN COMHAIRLE: Quite. But he did not discuss the principle.

Mr. FLINN: What I am trying to get at is this——

AN CEANN COMHAIRLE: The President did not discuss the principle on that particular occasion.

Mr. FLINN: No, but he set down a precedent. In fact, the President sets a lot of very useful precedents. He said that that Bill should be refused a First Reading because its principle was so bad that it ought not even to be discussed.

[453] AN CEANN COMHAIRLE: The principle should not be discussed. Ex hypothesi the principle must not be discussed.

Mr. FLINN: The Bill should not be discussed.

AN CEANN COMHAIRLE: The Deputy is entitled to continue his statement within the Standing Order.

Deputy MacENTEE rose.

AN CEANN COMHAIRLE: Deputy Flinn is in possession of the House. He is at liberty to continue and be in order.

Mr. MacENTEE: If a member of this House states that the principle is so bad that it should not be considered, surely he thereby discusses the principle, even though his discussion of it may be the briefest possible.

AN CEANN COMHAIRLE: I am not prepared to allow Deputy Flinn to make a speech which would naturally call for statements from other parts of the House, and there are more parts of the House than those occupied by the Government and by the Party sitting on my right. All these Deputies would not be entitled to make speeches. The Standing Order definitely precludes that sort of thing. The Deputy is only entitled to make a statement that the principle is so bad that he does not want to discuss it. Discussion must come later.

Mr. LITTLE: Is it your ruling that if in the Title of a Bill there is such a grave ambiguity as to amount to an insult to the intelligence of this House that we cannot emphasise and point out the nature of the ambiguity?

Mr. FLINN: Mind, I am speaking in the absence of any explanatory statement by the President.

AN CEANN COMHAIRLE: The explanation of this particular matter is quite simple. It bears its explanation on its face. Nothing could possibly be simpler than it.

Mr. FLINN: If the President had made an explanatory statement, I take it he would have told us that Dáil Eireann would have been unable to support itself and become individual [454] and distinct from the Oireachtas. I take it his object would have been to let members on this side of the House really understand. He has not given that explanation. The President is allowed to give an explanatory statement. As far as I understand the ruling I am entitled to make a statement. I must, at least, be able to make an explanatory statement. The implication of the Standing Order is that I am entitled to make something more than an explanatory statement.

AN CEANN COMHAIRLE: There is no such implication in the Standing Order. The Deputy can continue his statement if he wants to be in order. If not he must cease.

Mr. FLINN: I am anxious to be in order. I am suggesting that you refused to give a Second Reading to this Bill.

AN CEANN COMHAIRLE: The Deputy's speech, I suggest, is now confusing himself.

Mr. FLINN: I am asking that you refuse to give a First Reading to this Bill, that you refuse to print or publish or have any responsibility for a measure which apparently separates Dáil Eireann from the Oireachtas. I am asking you to refuse to give a First Reading to a Bill which calls upon you to make consequential provision for the attendance of the Oireachtas outside the Dáil, which only consists of the King and the Seanad. You cannot do it. You cannot compel the King to come here.

AN CEANN COMHAIRLE: The Deputy must come to the point before us at once.

Mr. FLINN: I want to know how the words on the face of that thing can possibly be carried out. I cannot see it, and because the President would not give any explanation as to how it is to be done, I say that it is waste of money. I say that that is a sound reason. It is consequential; if we pass this thing, we have to print it. “If leave to introduce a Bill be given an Order shall be made for Second Reading and the Bill shall be printed.” We cannot afford to print a thing like that. We ought not to try. Why should it [455] be printed? I am objecting now deliberately to the cost of printing a Bill which, on the face of it, is utterly inconsistent. It contains an international unconstitutional amendment, which has inherent in it a suggestion of power in this Dáil not in the Oireachtas; which has the suggestion that there is inherent in the Dáil power to make consequential arrangements providing for the attendance of the King. It is a waste of money.

AN CEANN COMHAIRLE: Would the Deputy explain where that is in the title?

Mr. FLINN: That is what I have been trying to do. We are in difficulties.

AN CEANN COMHAIRLE: I am not in any difficulty. I want the Deputy to explain how he makes the question of the King relevant—the question of the attendance of the King and the Oireachtas. It is not here.

Mr. FLINN: I am suggesting in my reading of it——

AN CEANN COMHAIRLE: Would the Deputy read the Title and show me the reference.

Mr. FLINN: I will.

AN CEANN COMHAIRLE: Not the whole of the Title, but that part of it.

Mr. FLINN: “By providing that certain members of the Executive Council shall be members of Dáil Eireann and that the remainder shall be members of the Oireachtas.” I am going to recall what I said. I think you, sir, were out at the time.

AN CEANN COMHAIRLE: I do not want the Deputy to repeat himself. He must keep himself to the question whether a Bill to allow Senators to be members of the Executive Council shall be introduced. If he does not do so he must cease speaking.

Mr. MacENTEE: That is not in the Title.

Mr. CARNEY: Perhaps the Ceann Comhairle would point out to the Deputy how he can be in order.

[456] AN CEANN COMHAIRLE: That is not part of the Ceann Comhairle's business.

Mr. FLINN: Article 12 says: “A Legislature is hereby created to be known as the Oireachtas.” That is what we have in this. “It shall consist of the King and two Houses, the Chamber of Deputies (otherwise called and herein generally referred to as ‘Dáil Eireann’)” “A Legislature is hereby created to be known as the Oireachtas.” That is what is here, and that is what we are up against. The Oireachtas shall consist of the King and two Houses, but a certain number of those people are going to be members of Dáil Eireann, and the remainder are to be members of the Oireachtas. If the Legislature consists, as my friend Deputy Lemass said the other day in relation to the shamrock, of three leaves —the King, the Dáil and the Seanad— how on earth can certain members be members of Dáil Eireann and the remainder be members of the Oireachtas, considering that you have still two leaves left, the King in Buckingham Palace and the somnolent people up above?

Mr. DAVIN: Where do you come in?

Mr. FLINN: I would like to go there and to go to sleep for ever. That is the point, that is the explanation that I wanted from the President.

AN CEANN COMHAIRLE: The Deputy has now made a statement that he is against the introduction of the Bill and that his difficulty is to understand who are the members of the Oireachtas. We will pass from that now.

Mr. FLINN: I object to this Bill being read a first time, because it is a deliberate invasion of a democratic principle. The House may not agree, but that is my contention. The Seanad at the present moment is not a popularly elected body.

AN CEANN COMHAIRLE: The Deputy cannot discuss that at this particular stage.

Mr. FLINN: I am objecting to it on the ground that it is attempting to introduce a non-elective element into [457] the Executive Council, purely nominated, the residuum of the old gang; that you can get, under this Bill, people nominated to this House who have never been through any form of election whatever except a bargain, except a nomination by the President of the Executive Council and the result of a bargain which was contained in a letter which is neither in the Constitution, the Constitution Act, nor the Standing Orders of this House. That is a degradation of a democratic principle. They had other machinery. Everything that is democratic in this thing could have been done without this under the Extern Ministers. I object to it because it is a further step in the abolition of Extern Ministers. There we had a case where we, in our Constitution, decided that we should not be restricted in the ambit of our choice, that we should not be restricted to the choice of the caucus of the Executive Council or the caucus of the Party upholding the Executive. We had there [458] the principle where the House could go outside and choose its own Ministers, who would be responsible to the House irrespective of the Executive Council. We had that machinery, but this machinery is utterly degrading from that point of view. It is to give power to the Executive Council, which is a unit, which works as a unit, which has to be dismissed as a unit, to take in any recollection of the bad old days which they might have enshrined and put in cold storage above——

AN CEANN COMHAIRLE: The Deputy is obviously making a speech, not a statement. I will now put the question.

Mr. MacENTEE: On a point of order——

AN CEANN COMHAIRLE: The question is “That leave be given to introduce this Bill.”

The Dáil divided: Tá, 70; Níl, 47.

Tá

William P. Aird.

Ernest Henry Alton.

James Walter Beckett.

George Cecil Bennett.

Ernest Blythe.

Séamus A. Bourke.

Seán Brodrick.

Alfred Byrne.

John Joseph Byrne.

James Coburn.

John James Cole.

Mrs. Margt. Collins-O'Driscoll.

Martin Conlon.

Michael P. Connolly.

Bryan Ricco Cooper.

William T. Cosgrave.

Sir James Craig.

James Crowley.

John Daly.

Michael Davis.

Eugene Doherty.

James N. Dolan.

Peadar Seán Doyle.

Edmund John Duggan.

James Dwyer.

Barry M. Egan.

Osmond Thos. Grattan Esmonde.

Desmond Fitzgerald.

James Fitzgerald-Kenney.

John Good.

Denis J. Gorey.

Alexander Haslett.

John J. Haslett.

Michael R. Heffernan.

Michael Joseph Hennessy.

Thomas Hennessy.

Mark Henry.

Patrick Hogan (Galway).

Richard Holohan.

Michael Jordan.

Patrick Michael Kelly.

Myles Keogh.

Hugh Alexander Law.

Patrick Leonard.

Finian Lynch.

Arthur Patrick Mathews.

Martin McDonogh.

Michael Og McFadden.

Patrick McGilligan.

Richard Mulcahy.

James E. Murphy.

James Sproule Myles.

John Thomas Nolan.

Bartholomew O'Connor.

Daniel O'Leary.

Dermot Gun O'Mahony.

John J. O'Reilly.

Gearoid O'Sullivan.

John Marcus O'Sullivan.

William Archer Redmond.

Vincent Rice.

Martin Roddy.

Timothy Sheehy (West Cork).

William Edward Thrift.

Michael Tierney.

Daniel Vaughan.

John White.

Vincent Joseph White.

George Wolfe.

Jasper Travers Wolfe.

Níl

[459]Frank Aiken.

Denis Allen.

Richard Anthony.

Gerald Boland.

Seán Brady.

Robert Briscoe.

Henry Broderick.

Daniel Buckley.

Frank Carney.

Archie J. Cassidy.

Patrick Clancy.

Michael Clery.

James Colbert.

Hugh Colohan.

Eamon Cooney.

William Davin.

Thomas Derrig.

Eamon de Valera.

Frank Fahy.

Hugo Flinn.

Andrew Fogarty.

Seán Hayes.

Patrick Hogan (Clare).

Patrick Houlihan.

[460]Stephen Jordan.

Michael Joseph Kennedy.

James Joseph Killane.

Mark Killilea.

Michael Kilroy.

Seán F. Lemass.

Patrick John Little.

Ben Maguire.

Seán MacEntee.

Séamus Moore.

Daniel Morrissey.

Thomas J. O'Connell.

Patrick Joseph O'Dowd.

Seán T. O'Kelly.

William O'Leary.

Matthew O'Reilly.

Thomas O'Reilly.

James Ryan.

Martin Sexton.

Timothy Sheehy (Tipperary).

Patrick Smith.

Richard Walsh.

Francis C. Ward.

Tellers:—Tá: Deputies Duggan and P. Doyle. Níl: Deputies G. Boland and Allen.

Motion declared carried.

Second Stage fixed for Wednesday, June 20.

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